Darkness Embraced Forums

Okay:

I would like first to ask you to be a tiny bit patient, and forgiving!
'Cause, the idea that I'm about to say, is quite extreme!
And English isn't my native language, I think that I speak English fairly good, but to some extent. Its is a bit hard to really express a very extreme idea...
So bear this in mind while reading it (and please excuse the grammar)

anyway...

First I would like to state that I do believe in magic, but sometimes I'm asking myself:

Am I just deluded? or plainly and irrevocably insane...?

Why ? cause if magic existed why don't you see witches and wizards and sorcerers walking down the street proudly with some kind of magical effects around them or a demonic pet with them ... I  mean why is it so occluded?
A delusion?

I read many posts, on many forums, and as a general rule:

When anyone claims to have experienced something plainly supernatural, (or I would say with some "hollywood-ness"!) it is either banned or ridiculed. Like if magic existed it is just for soft charm, or energy stealing and energy manipulation!

That no one else can see. And therefore, very hard to be refuted.

You can tell me "I can create an energy shield by visualizing it in my head"
How would I check if its there or not? How would I know if: 

1- you are nuts!
2- your talking piss!
3- you are deluded,

but most importantly

4-your telling the truth!

And why if someone tells:

"yea! man,  I can summon the "Little green stone eater!"

Then why does he have to be seen as a liar or a nuts job ! ( I grant you it is very hard to take plain obvious supernatural, and most of the time I agree they are attention seeker)

For example I will take the subject that touches most of you: 

"Movies based vampires"

I'm sure that if one guy come and say: 

"Well! My name is Lestat..."

The guy is gonna either be banned or not taken seriously. Because it is so out of reality that it cannot exist. Why Hollywood vampires cannot exist?  (In the basic vampire lore they are much worse!) (supernaturally speaking)

So little bit of unseen magic Yes! but too much no! no! no!

Why? Because it cannot be refuted? So we won't pass for fools ? Or is it because we are completely deluded?

I have practiced a lot of different "magic" I have seen very disturbing things but as I like to call myself a "rune mage". I never ever engraved rune in a sword and see it taking flame of glowing of unnatural light!

Do you catch my drift !

Once I read the original manuscript of a well known French monk, dealing in esoteric and magic, (don't remember the name on the top of my head just now) But he built the basics of magic lore, anyway I did read the original cause I wanted to see if the other reprint books, where not altered...  and they where not...

The book was full of name of demons and other angels or other extra-dimensional entities,  with of course the way to call them!   

But I never, ever face to face with one of them, but trust me I tried...

But on the other end,

I casted rune and read there meaning and they where so accurate!!!

I saved myself from a deadly situation "almost" miraculously so many times, so much that I'm completely convince that I will never died of a death related to car or road!
I tested to the point of stupidity this theory, walking in front of car or bus just to see if I was right (guess what! I am, so far...)

I have experienced very disturbing experiences supernatural in nature, but never never ever like in a full Hollywood movie.... never the less they where magical!

That is why I 'm most of the time convinced that magic really exists!

Then why magic should not be like in a book or a movie?
Why does it have to be for the people who believe in it, so covered? 

So we can pretend it exists and when faced with the facts we can say:

"you're not awaken, you can't see it" or "you cannot prove that it doesn't exist either!"

That is my problem and why I sometimes think I'm totally a completely ravaged and deluded raving lunatic!

well! that being said,

I am, one to believe anything is possible, only because ultimately magic is just some sort of bypass of natural will. I believe that somehow you can alter your reality the way you want, exactly like dream awareness or conscious dream!
(that is also the basic theory behind chaos magic)!

And the strongest your will is, the strongest the effect! eventually magic is just like a helping hand to have more strength! 

I believe also that to this day very few people have the strength of will sufficient to create miracle like phenomena and that we don't have people with the stature of a Jesus Christ, or a Merlin, or Buddha at this time so we don't see miracles, but sometime people raise up!  By coincidence, and make a few thing seem extraordinary. Like a guy that falls off of a 45 story height building without a scratch or so!
there is lot of unexplained mystery...


And last but not the least...

There is also the one who knows and stays in the shadows ...

I think in some respects many of the questions presented here do in some way speak to the unspoken thoughts and obscure feelings of many who grasp at some method to rationalize those things most in the world simply enamor as paranormal while others in past ages might have been more comfortable with the term mystical or more colorfully, magical.

Just in my own observation, I believe that it’s obviously much more a simple thing for someone or better yet, anyone to place some value and real grounded quality on something that can be measured, observed and encountered in the most personal of senses than it would be for someone to place their unqualified belief and personal value on something they cannot exhibit as one would an apple or a new car. Probably why the entire realm of the paranormal has always in the past been the subject of the more flighty of minds as far as mainstream society was concerned with the exception of more acceptable religious convictions and beliefs and their accompanying practices. The more mystic of ways has in the past often times taken on some threatening tone to more accepted esoteric practices while in the end, there is no more provable a thing in one belief as compared to another. Ones own convictions remain just that, ones own convictions. They are the fodder for some people’s jokes and humor, while others in increasing numbers in recent ages take stock in the belief that the affective matters of life and of spiritual belief can be both believed and taken as a fact of ones life, while not being able to be quantified to another for their measure nor should they be. I suppose its what gives it all its attractiveness as far as some are concerned, while many others in the encounter find true spiritual and qualified value in those things some call magical while others have called it their understanding of the laws of attraction, of ones own creative experience of their lives and then others simply infuse these ways into their life as a soulful and a spiritual way of being.

The path that many take I would have to imagine along these roads have to include many of the questions you present in your post. It would only be a real and natural personal response. I know in my own case I have as have some friends that I’ve spoken to on this issue in some ways. To not phrase such questions would raise my eyebrow a bit more than if one had. In my own mind it remains a usual response at some point in time that anyone would include along the path of their own belief system as would be a personally qualified belief in ghosts, shades, spirits, God, Gods or Goddesses.

I believe your words present a manner of thought that is both open while also being questioning in a very healthy way. Questions about belief and value are always a good thing!

Good stuff!

Peace>

Allin>

Well, well. That was definitely a very good post Sigiel. I must say you hit a good topic right on the nose. I can agree with you very much on magic which to me is just a natural extension of our minds. In my own research I have found the entire idea stems fully with the purpose of manipulating the reality around us.
  I think we all have a degree of interacting with those that seem to be fascinated with the "Hollywood" portrayal of magic which really seems to have bled over into the workings of many of my own generation. To my line of thinking there is nothing wrong with this, but it is definitely something I do not agree with. It was my own breaking from that thinking that spurred me to research more hard evidenced paranormal phenomena, and it has given me the realization that "Hollywood" magic has nothing on our paranormal reality and the magic of manipulating our day to day reality.
  Now onto the delusion part. This is a part that I cannot figure out what so ever. Why the extremes we see in differences in beliefs in magic? Anything from a Reiki user to one who is the reincarnation of a famous figure. The randomness pretty well astounds me at times. The hardest parts I have swallowing deal mostly with astral projection and channeling more than anything. In all honesty I quit believing it entirely as they seem to be employed only to play on others. Now it is interesting to note that while I do not believe in some things I do believe in others that are very similar. In the case of astral projection and channeling it comes down to OBEs and telepathy. It just throws more of a quandary upon me since many things are very similar but go by different names.
  Thankfully I am not very confused on the matter so much. The old line "A rose by any other name smells just as sweet" seems to solve much of the confusion for me. Anymore, it seems that beliefs in magic are much like languages. Many ways of saying one thing and I think this is what has caused much confusion for many people.
  The best thing to do, in my opinion, is to keep it all simple but make sure you have a good dictionary on hand to decipher the language of magic.


Verlanis
 
 

OK I watch Charmed so I'll be using that as a point of reference. The things I see on that show and others where magic is involved (I don't believe in spelling it with a k at the end, cause I will never be talking about sleight of hand and therefore see no need to differentiate, and besides, most people know which you are talking about) are, to me, examples of what one would possibly see during the visualization part of spellcasting. No one else would see it or feel it. Though if I am in a close-knit group all working toward the same goal, we don't see the same thing but we do feel it. I believe that magic does not work by itself most of the time and it must be supplemented with physical action (such as doing a love spell but never going anywhere you'd meet anyone - it's not gonna happen!) I think that in most cases if that many people believe in something there must be truth to it, but sometimes that doesn't work. For example, there is allegedly a relatively large community of behind-the-times people who believe the world is flat, and that is a mass delusion.

Oh yeah, when mentioning Charmed magic, I am not referring to demon vanquishes when I say things shown on that TV show are examples of visualization.

Excuse me if what I am about to say has been said before in reply, I did not read the replies for fear of losing the idea before I could post it (that happens to me all too often, lol.)

Anyway, Sigiel, your post has reminded me of an old theory.

There are many tales and legends of magic to the 'Hollywood extremes' in history and Mythology, Egyptian Mythology dealt with magic as an accepted practice. But as time went on, the tales of magic and the practitioners of what the tales depicted began to fade out, and technology began to rise. Not to mention the persecution of anyone seen as being a magic practitioner for a good, what, 5 centuries?

Now the world is heavily laden with technology, relies on technology, right? I believe that the continued reliance on technological and modern advances, combined with busy minds due to busy lives, the historical acts of magic are no longer available to us human beings. We have stopped listening completely to ourselves, stopped completely tapping into the Earth's energies (and if anyone else has read Garth Nix' Old Kingdom Trilogy the way the Charter magic flows is how I perceive the Earth's energy to flow, and just about how I perceive magic being used, just with more/less runic influences depending on person).

Does this mean I feel it to be lost forever? Nope. I actually believe a magical revolution is coming upon us very shortly, and such magics that were perceived as impossible due to method or energy need will be commonplace. I am one of those that believes there's a connection between every human being, every living creature in general, and our strive to completely individualize has helped us to ignore that pull.

Off topic: that connection is how I believe telepathy, empathy, and other passive abilities like it can and do occur. It's not that the person is 'gifted,' it's just that they are more in tune to our natural connection.

I also personally believe that what science has discovered about the planet and the universe is just the tip of the iceberg, and, while they're getting there, the truth is going to be shocking.

On topic: I believe that those kinds of magics are possible and have occurred, just changing times and changing humans have prevented much of it in our lifetimes. I do remember the video of the Hindu person in China and his showing he can set a newspaper on fire with only his will (don't have a link at the moment, sorry) and I believe that we all have the potential for that, but not necessarily the dedication, focus, or desire.

EDIT: Off topic again but, I was trying to read the replies and. . . Allin, your post nearly made my sleep deprived brain explode, heh. So I will try to read these in the morning when I am not so sleep deprived, lol.

I would like to answer more fully when I gather my thoughts more. That's a lot of words and ideas to take in- both from the original poster and those who have responded.

For now I will simply say, "The world is much more magickal than most people allow."

We tend to blow it off as coincidence, providence, bad luck, good luck, chance, and even unexplained miracles, answered prayers, conscious will, mass "delusion"...lol, the power of suggestion, mind control, altered perceptions.

But then again....... that is magick, isn't it? At its basic level?

Sorry about that Tigris,  8). When the thoughts start rolling along they also can fall off of the fingertips. Its like over caffeinated coffee.

Peace>

Allin>

Think of the existence of magic like the existence of God. You can't explain the existence of God, or see him and the theories that support his existence are as reliable as the theories that support the existence of magic.

People forget to take into consideration that everybody sees what they want to see, billions of people flock to worship God everyday, and yet deny the existance of a counter force, and evil, whether through fear or just denial.
People don't believe in magic and vampires and otherkin and occultist because of their instinctual reaction, fear, and also because the majority of people who are skeptics like to be proven wrong until they actually are.

I believe in magic and have performed it, but again look at what I said, two key words, Believe and Performed, I have faith in magic and the occult, and I perform it so therefore I feel that it exists.

Also Sigiel, you mentioned that you've saved yourself from dangerous situation, that may be your magical ability at work, but you have to take luck into consideration, because the existence of luck is like magic, though luck works more subtly, and anyone cn weild luck, just at different levels.

Hi all...been a while. :)

Interesting thoughts...many of them have went through my head as well. Some continue to do so.
As for why the magic is untangible for most, I think one has to attune itself to it. If all ones focus is on the other aspects of life he/she wont notice anything even if its happening right under they're nose. Hmm..but I think that was all ready said.
And more to the point, through my own experience. One has to live the life as a magical one. Practice, experience and above all believe, for when you do believe you do everything as well as you can and for most things thats critical to achieve any results at all. Specially in the beginning.

To seeing things happen, well...its in a way how you choose to interpet the information. Some like to visualize, some use sounds. Its a matter of personal preference.

Its al so important to note that since every singel creature is unique, the way one will see or hear and what one understands from it will al so be unique.
As so stated above by Phoenixx.
Yet the feeling is the most direct form of interpreting something. So I would say go by the  gut feeling of it ..what ever it is ;)

Take care.. 8)

When it comes to magic, I believe that belief is what matters, but not just yours, I think that the more people believe in magic, the stronger the magic is. I think that in ancient times when people believed in magic, and believed in it so fully that their belief in it strengthened all magic, that is why magic in ancient times was stronger. so strong that many things were possible, even things miraculous could have been done. Unfortunately since the mass of people don't believe in magic it causes the magic of this world to drop off to what it is today, with a few exceptions. The more powerful the faith in magic and the more who believe in it and all of it's forms makes all of our magic stronger. This is my belief, but it is just my belief everyone has their own beliefs and theories.

Ryzin and Firecat, both of your posts were what I meant in mine. I mean, I was trying to clarify to the extent I meant about the belief/practice of magic being the key variable in its strength and measurability, but your posts and points, IMHO, brought explained that further. :)

Very interesting topic. I know magic is real but there is always that feeling that I must be insane doing what I do.
I think it has to do with the way we are raised in modern Western society. Because of our material indoctrination, as I like to call it, we need rituals to essentially fool our minds so we can better work with our inner Will.
As one becomes better in working magic over the years they usually find to need less and less tools and only their own mind to work with.

Yep that's my point but with the slight added modification. I think that's if you are a strong willed, stronger souled!

Strong of the same caliber of a Ghandy, a JFK, a Jesus, a Buddha, an Alexander? a Genghis Khan, a Napoleon etc...then you can bypass the beliefs of others, and impose your own. Shape the universe for the many....


I do not believe in luck or coincidences. I do understand the basic law of probability, and the rules that there is always a pattern somewhere, even if the scale is so huge that it appears random.

And the example I was referring to are very precise and luck had nothing to do with it.


But hypothetically playing the devil advocate here!

Maybe because you believe and perform and feel that it exists, condition you to see it.  Maybe it is just a delusion, but because you think everyday strongly about it, you brainwash yourself, and then you alter your translation of your perceptions. And see luck and coincidence as being manifestation  of magical or mystical experiences...


I think also "the truth is out there" not in here!

So the mass do not have by definition the truth but rather the opposite.
Because they loose there personal believes, and adopt the dogma of others they loose the truth.

I do sincerely feel that the truth and the spiritual path is very personal, and what can be true for one is not for the others!  I do not say that all groups of individual are wrong, only that if they share strictly identical ideas then these ideas are probably wrong! If in it there is no way of interpretation.

By definition you cannot properly study them and make them your own...



I also wanted to had to my original post this

If you believe in magic strongly and are convinced that it exist, then logically you act accordingly.

Yet I've observed people that believe in the spirit or soul, reincarnation rebirth and the rest.Yet they still speck about death or living as any other lambda will.

if you think that you have a immortal soul for example then you cannot die!

or maybe these people are not really sure, they think that they are, but  in every day they doubt inside ... I believe that this inner doubt is the base of the problem...

for example I really do not fear death, if I die now I would be a tiny bit pissed off,  but that will be all, I'm so not afraid of human death that I consider murder not to be so bad.

What refrain me to murder anyone is that:

I'm gentle and good hearted buy nature,
There is other way to resolves problem,
The punishment of murdering is kinda rude,
I would not want that someone else murder me.

but intellectually, I don't think its is really that bad. why ?

because I KNOW that WE ARE IMMORTAL SOUL, that we cannot die, that only the body will perish, and a body is so insignificant in the reflected vastness of the universe.... people find me kinda heartless sometime because human life doesn't hold much value for me. but one the other hand I value the spirit of others, there idea, life in general.  that is why I'm not a ravenous serial killer!

I also do not believe in time, and do not pay attention to time in general I do not have a watch, I rarely  check my mobile for time. because I think time is a mental trick. and strangely enough I never late to an appointment that  I want to go!

all I'm saying here (or trying to) is most of us believe in gravitational law, and therefore we act like according to it. (not jumping from tall building), but with magic most of us (this community I mean) would not go all the way! mostly by fear of social stigma. maybe because of a self doubt I mentioned earlier...

I'm not like this, I say to anyone what I think, I have been socially repressed, exile and so one, but only because when I was face with them I doubted, and came to agreement with others and could not then hold my ground.

know I can say in a middle of a meal at the restaurant with both client and boss.

"that I believe in magic", "that G.W.bush ordered 9/11" (or so), "that the little green stone eater is the reincarnation of Jone Lennon and he live in the brain of Michael Jackson"

ALL of it with enough conviction that people will be genuinely interested  in my opinion, and asked me why I thought about it like I this. I rarely have the "get real, your completely "stupid and what not" attitude.

and when I do have it, it amuse me, and my conviction and certitude piss these people off badly.  I learn it by sheare pain.  I learned that saying what I believe openly without fear of what other people think, make them (my ideas) and me stronger, that speaking about my "ability as real and a fact" make them stronger.

And that self doubt is also a necessary tools, so you do not go into delusion, or a "Folie des grandeurs!"

But I'm not Jesus, and I do have strong doubt! so much that I cannot walk on water... but deep inside I know it because I have doubt that I cannot do so!

I hope it is not to long of a post, and that most of you catch my drift...
I 'am relived that this topic received good review! I really was anxious of knowing what other believed on this subject!  that is a contradiction in myself but to my excuse I'm a Gemini, so ...

Very interesting topic. I always say I know my magic works. I never say believe because belief can be set aside, can be discussed and is in the eye of the beholder. Your beliefs are not true for every being in this world, that is solipism.
It might sound a little too high and mighty to say I know but I've seen magic work for me. To deny its existence would be foolishness.
When I just started out with ritual magic I also said I believe it works but after too many 'coincedences' I accepted it as real. It's just like a laboratory test; an experiment is repeated sveral times and depending on the percentage of succeses you can tell if you are completely bonkers or there is definitely something going on.
Can I explain how it works scientifically? No, but there are so many things in life that science still cannot explain yet it exists.
All I know is that modern man, in order to succesfully use magic, must fool himself a little by using certain tools or whatever else. Our minds are great tools indeed but this powerful tool has been 'corrupted' by modern society so we need drama to activate the right parts of our mind to succesfully work magic.
This is the reason why most people find magic weird and something for demented roleplayers. They think that the tools themselves are considered magical. What kind of a nutjob would wave around a piece of wood claiming it had hidden powers?
It is the human mind that does the actual work and when I tell people that they are suddenly much more open to the possibility of magic.

This is all however just my opinion and if you think your magical tools really are special you should just go with it. ;)