"Occultic powers" and Spirituality

[Arya Kalarathri]

In an online group I attended, an interesting topic came up. In Shaktism, sometimes prayer and ritual leads to "siddhis," or better yet, "magick" or "occultic powers" to crudely put it. I do not mean "occultic powers" as in being able to read people's minds at will or anything like this. A good way to put it, is that sometimes, rewards come more than expected - at least to the perspective of the individual sadhak (spiritual aspirant). However, there is people out there, and this can go for anyone, who pray and only seek these things. Siddhis are said to only come to us sometimes as a side effect, but they are not intended to replace the ultimate goal of moksha (liberation from the cycle of death and rebirth).

Now, I am not bashing Neo-Paganism nor saying no one could pray for something. I am not bashing any religious or spiritual path at all. Nor am I saying wanting rewards in general is a bad thing so long as no intentional harm toward human beings is not done. I understand magick and ritual as being part of the religious practice and not necessarily an indicator of wanting rewards of any sort. However, what I want to bring up is...if we get to a point where we only expect rewards, and solely rewards (sometimes we may not realize it), does this get in the way of spirituality? Would this lead to more materialism than spiritualism, for lack of a better phrase?

Again, not saying we cannot pray for anything or want anything. Desire is clearly part of being human. I suppose what I am asking is, if only seeking tangible rewards is a hindrance to our spiritual growth.

It is an interesting thought to me, really, because those who are friendly toward the Orient see it as a non-materialistic area...but even the Orient, as individual people, can be as human as anyone else.



Sincerely,
Arya Kalarathri

[ShadowMind]

However, what I want to bring up is...if we get to a point where we only expect rewards, and solely rewards (sometimes we may not realize it), does this get in the way of spirituality? Would this lead to more materialism than spiritualism, for lack of a better phrase?

Desire is always going to play something of a role (with the exception tossed in there every once in a while). Particularly in western society which has become more of a materialistic one.

Based on your question, where the aspirant is seeking rewards only (even if those rewards are ‘tied’ to prayer and ritual) then I do think there is loss of focus. That loss of focus can cause the aspirant to lose there way and potentially harm their spirituality. Also, if siddhis are tied to prayer and ritual, I do not things those types of rewards would come without the aspirant’s proper focus and understanding of what they are doing. In other words, you do not achieve siddhis for the sake of seeking siddhis.

I do think it is likely and perfectly ok to have rewards as a part of your seeking of spirituality as long as the focus is not the reward.

ShadowMind

[Heyoka]

I do think it is likely and perfectly ok to have rewards as a part of your seeking of spirituality as long as the focus is not the reward.

And, if I may add, one doesn't expect to have actual physical or material "rewards" dropped in their lap.
Nothing comes free, no matter what mythology or stories may tell you.
"There's no free lunch out there kids..."

And besides, what's worth having if you haven't had to earn it somehow?
Aside from perhaps a birthday or Yule/Xmas gift, often the joy in acquiring something is the satisfaction in the work that it took to that point. Joy in a job well done, and a reward well earned.

heyoka

[Antarctica]

Well I don't want to shock any body but you get what you get and have to learn how to adjust to the situation. To me there are no "gods" so to speak. All religions to me are bogus. I do not care what they are preaching, especially if you are a western, we are just not wired for eastern phil. Now I didn't say we cannot be opened minded, and keep in mind that is just my opinion. Nor do I wish to offend anyone that does practice a religion. Know thy self has always been to me the best of any.

[Arya Kalarathri]

[Somewhat Offtopic]

... especially if you are a western, we are just not wired for eastern phil.

I respectfully disagree with this sentiment. There clearly exists cultural barriers between general East and West philosophies, but I actually do not see them the same way Kipling would. He would say, "East is East, and West is West, and neither shall ever twine." East has influenced the West and vice versa. For instance, Thoreau and Emerson were influenced by general Hinduism in the Transcendentalist movement but on the other hand, Mahatma Gandhi was influenced by them. "Civil Disobedience" inspired a lot of what Gandhi did. This shows how the two influence each other and are not really as inseparable as some may think.

To clarify, the point of my comment about the Orient was that people from the Orient and non-Orient were no different in regards of human they are, or can be. It is my hope it did not come across as Oriental supremacist-like in nature. [/Somewhat Offtopic]



I like the responses I see here so far. Wanting rewards is not a bad thing to me unless it becomes a situation where you only seek a spiritual path or religion solely for rewards - and rewards only. Then that is when it becomes materialism for me. I do not think anyone is immune to materialism, no matter what religion, culture, etc they come from. As ShadowMind succinctly put it, one should not seek magick or occultic powers for the sake of seeking magick or occultic powers.

I also agree that most people in general do not expect things to just fall in their lap. Anyone who strongly believes this happens have watched way too many Disney movies as far as I can tell! I agree with this. On the other hand, I do think there is merit in believing something comes out of the efforts - at least to a certain extent. Without belief, there is less motivation to do something.

Namaste.


Sincerely,
Arya Kalarathri

[ShadowMind]

we are just not wired for eastern phil. Now I didn't say we cannot be opened minded, and keep in mind that is just my opinion.

Bearing in mind that this is your opinion and I respect it as such, I wish to bring my own experience to bear on this. It is always a danger to paint with a broad brush, which is why I will generally state my opinion as mine or mine with a small sampling of people I have known. To suggest that westerner's, in general, do not have a penchant for Eastern Philosophy will bring all of us who do out of the woodwork.

That being said, I am wired for Eastern Philosophy and culture and have been since I was quite young (which seems terribly long ago). There is a great deal of interest and practice among my friends of Taoism, Martial Arts, I-Ching, Chinese Language and culture, etc. Of course, this stands to reason as the circles I travel in are those of my own interest. However, there seems to be an awful lot of people I have come across who seem perfectly wired to understand and appreciate Eastern Philosophy. Clearly, there are a number of them on this forum alone.

I do understand where you are coming from, however. My best friend is a sports nut and graphics designer and I am pretty sure he hasn't given much thought to Eastern Pholosophy and having met many of his friends, I am pretty sure they have not either. So, if you come from an experience such as that, i can see how your opinion might have formed that way. Yet, you must realize that, like I said before, is a reasonably small sample size and it is always best to paint with a smaller brush than a broad one.

As I mentioned, please take this as the friendly debate it is intended as.

Oh, and I apologize for having hijacked the topic. I return you now to the regularly scheduled program.

ShadowMind